Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Eeney, Meeney, Miney, Moe, Catch a.....

When it comes to race there are two types of people. First, there's the wholly unbiased and the unconsciously prejudiced. These are people that do not view the world by race, even if they may possess some prejudices based on race. Second are the ignorantly bigoted and the cognizant racists. They have a focus, sometimes an obsession on race, and it colors (no pun intended) every view they have.

Now before I get into the meat of this post, here's an illustration of the above first point:



If that didn't make you laugh, you have no hope. But since I'm bound to piss people off severely with this post, I figured I'd start off with a laugh.

First, let me get some (but not a comprehensive) history of my posts on the subject of race (skip ahead to get the meat). My first post, "Michelle Obama Hates America?" brushed on the subject by asking if our now-first lady was a racist (the answer is no, but it got me thinking about how you define racism). After the Obama inauguration, I dropped a gem entitled "Our Colorblind Society and the Ragin' Racists" which talked about the obsession that the civil rights leaders of the past (and the current crop of race whores) have with keeping the race debate alive. I also arrogantly (because I like to tweak the race-obsessed) declared that systemic racism was officially over with the election of Barack Obama. And with "A 'Black and White' AOTW" I tackled a non-racial situation where the charge of racism was implied by many, assumed by others, and stated by several. And I did it by focusing on the race of everyone involved (and nobody called me a racist for doing so, surprisingly). So with this post, we're going to examine what racism actually is.

As always, a conversation and a current event remind me of how people perceive things differently (and wrongly in some cases). In this case, it's the Joe Wilson situation. To save some time, people have indicated his outburst was racially motivated (and others have stated he's racist). This is a continuation of the line of bullshit that the overwhelming reasons for opposition to President Obama's policies and pronouncements is based on the color of his skin, and an inherent racism in America. I see only one appropriate and logical response to these charges.

Fuck you assholes. Die of screaming ass cancer, you shit-eating bastards.

Now if the above sentence is offensive (because you're one of those screaming racism), there's a point and a justification. The charge of racism is a blight on the soul of a person. It's at least half as bad as calling the president a "nigger" (and yes, I have heard at least one person I know well enough to know he's not a racist do so). It's a damned near indefensible charge that infers guilt unless proven otherwise, requires groveling to try to repudiate (and that doesn't even work for the most torqued off), and is an attempt at a blanket negation of a person's opinions as well as the person himself (something that racism itself does).

So this brings up the question: Is every bigoted attitude, every racially inflammatory statement, and every person who approached a situation looking at race in a negative way an example of this enduring and malignant racism?

(Self-confession: applying this kind of standard, I'd be classified a racist. I've laughed at racial jokes, used what could be considered racially insensitive language, and made snap judgments based on race. I'm not saying any of the preceding was right, but it has happened (and I'll provide an example or two below). Look through your past, I bet you wouldn't meet the standard either.)

The short answer to my above question is a resounding NO.

Long answer (starting on Wikipedia):
Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
Now there's a reason I begin with a relatively narrow definition of racism. Because there are lots of ignorant people that couldn't tell you why do what they do and say what they say. This does not excuse their behavior completely, but it's the difference between kids beating each other up and an adult assaulting another. So let's look at the gray area.

Prejudices - We all have them. White, black, and everybody in between. We make snap judgments on people based on their clothes, skin color, hair, accent, and every other minor cue of body language. Some of these are inculcated by the society we live in, others by the people who raised us. And most often, they are unconscious reactions. Example: When I was in retail, I've had a group of black teenagers walk in with the drooping pants. First reaction was ""What are they going to steal?" My next reaction, coming a second later, was my brain correcting my snap judgment. In this case, I quickly corrected the snap judgment (but, as it was a group, I did keep an eye for those telltale signs of shoplifting).

Bigotry - This is essentially an unthinking reaction to the color of someone's skin, mainly because of something that someone learned from early on. There is no thought. There is no idea as to why (including the racial superiority argument). It's more of a brainwashed attitude than a reasoned view. A bigot would be the type of person who would treat everyone equally (because he doesn't see any inherent difference) but would also be the one to refer to the current president with the n-word or have an issue with interracial marriage, but not toward any mixed-race child (except the president). I've got 'em in my family (to be fair, I do have racists as well (they're German, of course)).

Segregationism - For lack of a better term (and because it's not its own mindset) this is somewhere between bigotry and actual racism. It's a belief that while all people are equal, and should be treated as such, there's something not "right" with excessive intermingling of races. It goes from just ignorance and a desire to not subject people to perceived stigma, to actual racial purity, and therefore racism.

The Old South - This is a special case, as this is an area which had institutionalized racism until 1964. Now while racism will always exist, this is an area where prejudices and bigotry were reinforced by law, and almost everyone was raised with them. It does take a couple of generations to breed out the attitude (and that generation is busy being born right now). Again, I'm not saying anything is right here, but it means I'm going to give them a little more slack before I declare racism.

The reverse - Now, these attitudes and thought can be found in everyone, not just white people. Whether it's a belief that whitey is the devil, or a perception that they're looking down on you, or the belief in the superiority of the black man (racism), nothing here is exclusive. And institutionalized racism is too often used as a justification for prejudices and bigotry and the desire to be segregated.

So it comes down to this: While we still have much to do before we reach the point where our children don't understand why the election of Barack Obama was of such significance in terms of race (I hope to live to see it), branding every act that reflects ignorance, prejudice, and bigotry with the blanket term or racism both empowers the racists with numbers, and diminishes the individual in favor of the mindless collective. So what I'm asking is that we be accurate in branding racism for what it is.

[postscript (because the post is about the concept of racism, not Angry Joe Wilson)]
As for Joe Wilson, I can't say whether or not he is racist. There is some racial insensitivity in his past. There are hints at bigotry, and a segregationist mentality (his mentor was Strom Thurmond, after all). But is he working in the interest of racism, or is he a reflection of a culture (the Old South)? But I'm willing to give him the chance without expecting him to prove he's not a racist.

36 comments:

dmarks said...

Too often, there are accusations of racism without any evidence whatsoever of it.

Jimmy Carter once again proved himself to be a feeble-minded old man when he said that Joe Wilson's "You Lie" brief tirade was racist.

To men like Carter, the term has no meaning at all, and is just a pejorative likely to be tossed around with no consideration to any meaning, and no-one dare look at the dictionary.

In contrast, the last time I properly identified someone as a racist was when some troll was bashing Sept. 12 protesters specifically for their skin color, which the troll mentioned. A very clear example of racism.

Dave Miller said...

Patrick, you correctly noted that it is almost always impossible to prove a negative.

For example, prove you are not a racist.

When someone says he is not, or something isn't, how indeed can that be proved?

Joe Wilson, arguing that he is not [a] racist, is in the same place those who argued that Iraq had no WMD were.

Trying to prove a negative accusation or statement.

Nearly impossible because those who make the accusations usually also determine the facts by which the negative can be disproved.

TAO said...

dmarks,

Why don't you define 'racism' and 'racist' for us and then we can follow you point a little easier...

Satyavati devi dasi said...

This horse is still bleeding from the beating we gave it yesterday.

Institutionalized, cultural racism is still racism. I'm not sure why you think it's all right for people in the South to harbour racist attitudes because they were raised with them, or that somehow, because they heard the N word being tossed around from the time they were in the cradle that it somehow makes it less than racism, or that it makes it all right.

If you're 95 years old and senile I can forgive you a few things. If you're of able body and mind I have zero tolerance.

Now, like we talked about, maybe everyone in Ohio is colourblind and no one ever thinks about race. But when you're talking about Joe Wilson, protege of Strom Thurmond (who preached for segregation, except, apparently, in his bed), 'racial insensitivity' is a gross and vast understatement. If you want to say that he's a 'reflection of a culture', does that somehow make it all right? The whole culture is racist, so it's all right?

It's not all right.

I've seen prejudice from all sides. I've been discriminated against by people who can't tell one non-Christian in foreign clothes from another. I get the evil eye from little old white women seeing me push what appears to be a biracial baby in a stroller.

You asked;
Is every bigoted attitude, every racially inflammatory statement, and every person who approached a situation looking at race in a negative way an example of this enduring and malignant racism?

Yes, to some degree, because whether it's a cultural belief, an institutional belief, a belief you absorbed along with the Latin version of the Hail Mary as a child or a belief that you believe just cause everybody's always believed that way....

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

And that belief is what triggers the behaviour.

Shaw Kenawe said...

To men like Carter, the term has no meaning at all, and is just a pejorative likely to be tossed around with no consideration to any meaning, and no-one dare look at the dictionary.--dmarks

I would guess that President Carter knows a hell of a lot more about racism and can sniff it out much more efficiently than say someone who didn't grow-up in the south during the Jim Crow era. (Georgia has the 2nd highest rate of brutal lynchings of black Americans in the US--I believe Mississippi is #1. And those lynchings ceased only a mere 41 years ago--the last one occurring in 1968.)

And I think it's very easy for people who have no history of members of their race being murdered simply because of the color of their skin; or denied equal protection under the law simply because of the color of their skin; or being denied other Constitutional rights simply because of the color of their skin--it seems a bit too easy for those people to run on about how institutional racism may be over and that we can all just go about our business now because no one is anti-black, because Look! we have a bi-racial president of the USofA.

"Again, I'm not saying anything is right here, but it means I'm going to give them a little more slack before I declare racism."

Well that's nice of you.

Can we ask the same of certain blowhards on the right? Y'know, the ones who pronounced Mr. Obama a racist?

I hope you apply the same standard to the president and call out the numbskull who pronounced that Mr. Obama "...has a deep-seated hatred for white people."

The rot-brained crabwart who said that in a broadcast so that millions and millions of people heard it is considered a hero and a great man of ideas in the GOP.

I don't recall seeing anything [and I'm too lazy to search your blog]condemning that statement.

And I apologize if you did so.

Name: Soapboxgod said...

It ought to matter little the motivations behind someone's hate, intolerance, discrimination, or otherwise towards another person. To infer otherwise is completely Orwellian to be perfectly blunt. It is nothing short of an attempt at building a thought police force.

If someone you love is beaten to death, does it really matter if they were beaten because they were black or whether they were merely beaten because the failed to get their wallet out of their back pocket in time? The former is no more dead than is the latter. Yet, to chalk such an act up as a hate crime only to assess a stiffer penalty is not an equal application of the law. It places a lesser value on the life of someone who was killed for reasons other than race.

Is flag burning wrong? Should it be punishable? What if a veteran is merely burning the flag properly to dispose of it vs. someone who, as a matter of protest, is at odds with the direction his country is going??

The act of burning the flag is one and all the same yet if we chastise one and condone the other we're assessing motivation or thought.

It is true there are varying degrees of criminal acts such as first, second, and third degree murder. However that is not an assessment of one's specific motivation for the degree of said act.

dmarks said...

Tao: Do you lack a dictionary? If not, what do you dispute?

Do you dispute the idea that criticising someone for reasons that have nothing to do with race isn't racist?

Do you dispute the idea that it is racist to explicitly bash someone for their skin color?

-----------

SSD: That's a great comment. But would you agree that "Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race." might not be the complete story? Would you perhaps agree that there can be racism without supremacist views?

I've met many people of all races who argue in favor of racial segregation, without any sort of supremacy baggage. This seems to be racist enough for me.

Shaw: " would guess that President Carter knows a hell of a lot more about racism"

Or he knew about it, and forgot about it all. Why else would he stupidly describe as "racist" an incident that was completely devoid of racism or any race element?

"And I think it's very easy for people who have no history of members of their race being murdered simply...."

So, now it looks like we have an argument that if we were in such a group, we would abandon reason and become racists.

" Y'know, the ones who pronounced Mr. Obama a racist?"

The only thing racist by him that I have found is his occasional support for quota-based "affirmative action', which demands that individuals be punished or rewarded only for their skin color. But this is only occasional. Probably to the chagrin of those who strongly favor this sort of racist policy.

I strongly condemn any racist epithets or slams against Obama. It should go without saying that "you lie", Joker, Hitler, and Socialist signs and slogans do not count as racism.

Shaw Kenawe said...

dmarks typed: "Or he knew about it, and forgot about it all. Why else would he stupidly describe as "racist" an incident that was completely devoid of racism or any race element?"

Tell us exactly how you know what motivates Joe Wilson, what he thinks about race, and why he claimed it was "a smear" on Strom Thurmond's legacy to reveal that he had fathered a child with his family's black servant?

Joe Wilson has a history of belonging to and backing southern white racist organizations.

There is more evidence in the public arena that supports the idea of Wilson being a racist than there is not.

"The congressman, we learned, belonged to the Sons of Confederate Veterans, led a 2000 campaign to keep the Confederate flag waving above South Carolina’s state Capitol and denounced as a “smear” the true claim of a black woman that she was the daughter of Strom Thurmond, the ’48 segregationist candidate for president."

The Confederate Flag represents a treasonous attempt to break apart the United States of America.

And, dmarks, I have to say that I would believe Jimmy Carter before I would believe you. Carter is a son of the south and knows what he's talking about when it comes to racism.

dmarks said...

Shaw: You make some good points, there. I wonder what Patrick will say about this.

I have no respect for the use of the confederate flag, other than in "Dukes of Hazzard" on that car.

I have had more respect for Jimmy Carter than you would have known. But a lot of it diminished a few years ago when he vented some rather lame antisemitic views.

Jennifer said...

Wow, Patrick! A bold topic to be sure.

I have been called a racist because I do not support Obama's policies. This person did not know me yet somehow concluded that that I did not like him because of his skin color. Unfortunately, this happens way too oftenin our society. If you have a disagreement with someone of a different race, the race card is played.

Before you label someone a racist, you better be darn sure that it is 100% accurate. Using it too often and carelessly takes away the truth of the word.

Take Al Sharpton for instance. He uses the word so often that it means nothing.

From the wiki definition, it doesn't mention racism as being limited to a certain race and yet that is how the word is mostly used.

Affirmative action is in itself racist. Giving preference to one race over another meets the definition of racist, listed above.

I think it is arrogance supreme to take it upon yourself to call someone else a racist. Unless you know them personally and have proof beyond doubt, it should not be thrown about like it is. What your idea of "proof" is differs from person to person.

dmarks said...

I know another blogger who has had many posts about how opposition to Obama's healthcare plan is racist. And his argument is based on the content of the healthcare plan, and does not involve Obama's skin color.

That is, opposing the very ideas contained in the plan is "racist" according to him.

Jennifer, I have discussed affirmative action at length with Arthurstone. The concept is bigger than just the racist part. Sure, the part with quotas, or preferences, or goals (see how they change the name once the public comes to hate it?) is undeniably racist.

The lengths to which people go to defend this practice are always steeped in stereotype (all whites are rich people who stole opportunity from blacks), ideals of historical vengeance (punish living white people for what dead white slaveowners did 400 years ago) and assumptions of black inferiority (minorities are incapable of competing and overcoming unless there is an affirmative-action program to give them an unfair advantage due to their skin color).

But there is a quite commendible part of affirmative action which involves outreach efforts into minority communities.

I agree with efforts like this to get an increase in qualified minorities to apply for college, jobs, or career advancement.

I just don't agree with racial preference for less qualified candidates, or with automatically favoring one race over another when all is equal.

TAO said...

dmarks,

I have all the definitions of racism I need....

Three times a month I travel throughout the South and just last week I had the honor of finding myself in Joe Wilson's district.

It is what not what was said that determines racism but it was the fact that he felt he COULD say it. Did he ever feel the need to make such comments when another president stood at the same podium? Of course not and we both know that there have been other situations that could have justified such an outburst. But by the fact that he does not RESPECT the office of the President now that a black man is in the position is derived from racism.

When you question his birth certificate and have military personnel believing that they can disobey the commander in chief then you have examples of racism.

If you would actually read and think about what Carter said rather than read the headlines he was pretty much on the mark...

You can claim that there were examples during the Bush years but never had we had cases where soldiers filed lawsuits questioning a policy on the fact that the President can not be the President...

You can claim that Bush was in the same situation in 2000 but he was not. His authority may have been questioned because of the election but NOT because of himself personally.

That's racism.

dmarks said...

During the Bush years, you did have traitorous individuals in the military who signed up and refused to serve. I guess that is to me about as bad: I have contempt for both types of desertion and insubordination.

In 2000, Bush's authority was questioned mainly due to his political party (and more importantly, that it was not the same as the Democrats).

That wasn't racism. That was blind partisanship. Much more of what you describe as racism is blind partisanship that you let on.

Are you so certain that Wilson would not have also shouted "You Lie!" if it had been a second-term President John Kerry defending the healthcare plan in front of a joint session of Congress? You really can't be certain about that, can you?

Name: Soapboxgod said...

Additionally DMarks, if I'm not mistaken, there was some debate over John McCain's eligability with regards to the office of the presidency was there not?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/politics/11mccain.html?ex=1373428800&en=ee6c579827eba3c1&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

TAO said...

Dmarks,

I do NOT remember, and I am well old enough to remember, where anyone refused to serve in the military because of their opinion of THE PRESIDENT. I know quite a few who refused to serve/deploy because they were against the war in Iraq: There is a HUGE difference between not obeying an order because you are against the war and questioning the right of the President to give orders and or be Commander in Chief.

In the case of the ones who refused to serve they should be arrested, given their day in court and put in prison. In regards to the ones refusing to accept Obama as President THEN THAT IS TREASON.

Big difference between refusing an order and refusing to acknowledge that the president is in fact the commander in chief.

TRUTH 101 said...

This is another example of what I have been saying all along. The republicans pander to bigots, homophobes and idiots. Bigots all over are cheering on Joe Wilson. As are idiots and homophobes. The republicans offer nothing of substance but they will make a low class clown a hero for his outburst.

Patrick M said...

Dave: A perfect way to summarize would be to compare flinging racism around like communism in the Joe McCarthy era.

Tao: If racism is in the eye of the beholder, that's not only ignorant, but very much in the form of the McCarthyism I refer to above.

It also assumes a whole lot based on actions, without shit to back it up.

And the birthers, as stupid as they are, are not racists because they think the president was born in another damned country (despite lacking evidence and denying evidence to the contrary). And you suck for making me have to defend anything about them. :)

Having said that....

Dmarks: Tao is right between cowards refusing to fight because they disagree with the war and morons who think the president isn't legitimate (I don't know of any of the "selected not elected" crowd who were in the military).

101: Bull-fucking-shit. There are as many in the GOP that pander to bigots and homophobes as there are Dems who pander to race baiters and anti-Americans. And both parties hand job their own idiots.

When you feel up to adding some substance to your deluded delusions, go on ahead.

Patrick M said...

Brain freeze, I skipped all the comments in the middle.

Saty: I don't ever say that a culture like the South justifies the racism and bigotry. But it does let me give some allowance for the unthinking. Just as the senile citizen who still uses the term "colored" should be excused, it's a matter of correcting and educating as much as it is wholesale condemnation. So I'll be a little less condemning for a snap comment if they take it back on reflection (the Robert Byrd "white niggers/black niggers" comment, for example). The attitudes of a culture don't magically change because you remove the institutionalized racism.

So I'll cut them a little more slack unless they're unrepentant.

Shaw: First of all, Carter seems to be seriously trying to make up for his failings as a president by diving into the partisan shit. He's gone from being presidential to a race-baiting cocksucker (and not in the good, porn movie way). At least Clinton, perv that he is, generally stays away from this kind of crap.

And on that "quote," go over to his site (I'm guessing it's rushlimbaugh.com), find the quote in context and I'll be glad to comment further.

Again, it may be racially insensitive, it may be bigoted,it may be racist, or it may be a comment with facts behind it also designed to piss you off.

But generally, I don't spend every second of my blog going after radio people. I have better things to do.

Dmarks: I wouldn't say the Joe Wilson was totally devoid of a race aspect. But it certainly doesn't constitute racism. That's the point of this post. It's damn near impossible to have a discussion when the charge is raised.

And I'd comment sooner if I had motivation.

Jenn: Now you know what to do when someone calls you racist for not bowing to Obama: Lots of obscenities.

dmarks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dmarks said...

Truth 101 said: "Bigots all over are cheering on Joe Wilson. As are idiots and homophobes"

Not only is a non-racial event being filled with race due to someone's imagination, but now a gay rights aspect of "homophobia" is being imagined into it.

So, before we had the "Translation Dictionary of Pure Imagination" turning "You lie!" into "You suck because you are black!", but it also turns "You lie!" into "You suck because you are gay!".

All the more interesting, because the target of "You Lie" could be described as being as "homophobic" as a typical Republican: Obama also opposed gay marriage.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

Patrick,

To find myself a timeline, the seperate black and white hospitals (not just a segregated floor, totally seperate hospitals in two parts of town) in Wilmington, NC were finally eliminated in 1968 when New Hanover was built.

That's 41 years ago (as I should know). That's 41 years of education, enlightenment, and illumination.

How long you gonna give people with the education bullshit? Like I pointed out, 95 *and senile* is one thing. As far as I'm concerned, anyone 80 and under in their right minds needs to get over it. This is 2009, not 1909.

And as far as unrepentant? Do you think that when I've gotten on people for their racist commentary they grovel in sorrow for their misdeeds? If I'm intimidating enough about it to forestall an argument (which is not common since I'm not very intimidating), I get a dirty look and occasionally a few choice names tossed at me.

Down here, the whole racist mindset is dearly beloved. It's euphemised as 'heritage' (like those who want to keep the Confederate flag flying over government buildings) and those who celebrate Civil War (scuse me, The War Between The States) things and the Sons And Daughters Of The Confederacy... it's given all kinds of prosy names but in the end it's candy-coated bullshit and just a way to make it all seem okay, when it isn't.

How many 'generations' you gonna give it? There's been at least three since integration. How long do we continue to come up with euphemisms, excuses, and other ways to buttercream this rancid stain on our country?

The fact is, and I've heard it from plenty, is that there are a significant number of people who didn't vote for Obama because they didn't want a black man as president, period, and who resist anything he's got going on now because a black man shouldn't be telling white folks what to do. Even my brother in law I hear this from, and it's resulted in a couple of gaping famiy chasms. This is the reality, Patrick, whether or not you are willing to admit it.

Even the CHURCHES are segregated down here, man.. are you aware of that? Sure, not *legally* segregated, but when you've got First Baptist (white) and First Baptist (black) in the same town.. and cemeteries labelled 'colored' (sign taken down around 2005)... cmon, will you?

Joe Wilson's a racist, and he was long before Obama was president. But he showed an absolute lack of respect for the OFFICE of the president, if nothing else, and he's representative of a group of Americans who wallow in their collective ignorance and fear.

Toad734 said...

I found nothing about Joe Wilsons comments to be racist. I didn't even know that was an issue until yesterday when a coworker told me how ridiculous it was that people were making a big deal out of him saying such a racist thing. My guess is that he was watching Faux News and that Hannity or some idiot like that found one guy who was calling Wilson a racist and it turned into something bigger than what it really was. Kind of like how middle class America thinks Obama is going to raise their taxes or give free health care to illegal immigrants, neither of which are true.

That being said, it doesn't mean Wilson isn't a racist but I guess that is his right and being from South Carolina and coming up under Strom Thurmond its almost a birthright. You could call my statement racist for assuming that every white Protestant male from South Carolina is racist but I think more often than not, you will find that to be the case. Just like more often than not Asians don't know how to drive. It doesn't mean all Asians are shitty driver it just means there is a good chance that the shitty driver in front of you is Asian (or a blonde white yuppie mom in an SUV and Chocolate Lab).

But just saying Joe Wilsons tantrum is a result of his racism is going to extremes and making up shit. Now, his comments to prove that his is childish and uninformed and probably not very well read and or a liar but it certainly doesn't make him racist...on that statement alone. Anyone who says it does is retarded.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

Like I said. Joe Wilson was a racist long before Obama was elected.

I do believe that he showed an utter lack of respect for the office of the president.

I further believe that if Obama was white, that obvious disrespect would perhaps have either not been verbalized or would have been expressed differently.

And I'm not a retard.

dmarks said...

So, he would have said something different if it had been, say President Kerry.

"You waffle AND you lie!!!!"

Toad: "Kind of like how middle class America thinks Obama is going to raise their taxes"

Well, Obama keeps promising to do this, in several ways. So it is reasonable for middle class America to believe him.

"or give free health care to illegal immigrants"

Obama announced his intent to do this in an earlier speech. Again, why blame people for taking the President at his word?

Toad, in the rest of your message you managed to be racist about whites and Asians, and then you used a desparaging insult used for disabled people. Way to bash.

dmarks said...

retarded: "Slang: Disparaging. a. a mentally retarded person."

So Toad, do you use the "that's so gay" insult, and call people the N word also? It fits right in with that.

I'm kind of surprised anyone uses this kind of taunt outside of the far corners of junior high playgrounds anymore.

Patrick M said...

Saty: First of all, "War of Northern Aggression" sounds much more ridiculous.

Like I said in the original post, nothing justifies these attitudes, but as long as I'm seeing some attempt to correct things, I'll be hesitant to scream racist.

In the case of Joe Wilson, he immediately took steps to contact the White House to apologize for his inappropriateness. That's the progress I expect.

As for those who want to cling to those views, then the term is appropriate.

And as for it being 40 years, that means those who were brought up in those days are the leaders now, who may still identify with the racist mentalities of old, despite many trying to do otherwise. That's why I said it would take a couple generations to breed it out.

As for disrespect for the office in the Joe Wilson outburst, you have no argument here, because it was.

Toad: I had to read your comment at least twice to confirm that you were in agreement on this one point.

Toad734 said...

Dee:

If you make under $250,000, AKA middle class, there is no tax hike on the table for you. In fact, there is no actual hike in income taxes at all. The temporary Bush tax cut is merely going to expire and Obama knows that you can't start 2 wars without paying for it and will therefore not extend that tax cut.

Obama never said anything about giving free health care to illegal immigrants and even if he did that does not matter. Obama does not write the laws, Congress does. What matters is what it says in the House and Senate bills and I know these mouth breathing, moron, tea baggers can't read but if they could, they would realize that, in plain English, it says no subsidized coverage will be available to illegal aliens or even illegal family members of American citizens.

What has been discussed is requiring illegal immigrants to buy health insurance and be covered so the rest of us don't have to pay for them when they end up in the much more expensive ER. I have no idea how they could do that but either way, the only was it affects you is that hospitals will have to eat fewer ER visit expenses which should translate into lower costs to you the consumer, insured or not.

No I never use the N word or say "thats so gay".


But more often than not if I am behind a bad driver they are typically either a cab driver, Asian or a blonde yuppie on a cell phone in her SUV with a lab in the back seat who randomly locks up the breaks when she drives in the vicinity of any and all Starbucks.

And for the record, I didn’t say anything disparaging about handi-tards!

So, spare me the fake outrage.

Toad734 said...

Dee:

YOu do realize that there are differences between the races right?

For instance, black people can't get lice and white people don't get sickle cell anemia. Mexicans are in general shorter than most whites and blacks. Evolution and natural selection explains many of these differences. The same reason white people can't dunk is the same reason Asians can't drive. Its just the way it is. Perhaps its cultural perhaps its biological but it is what it is.

Admitting these differnces doesn't make someone racist.

You are barking up the wrong tree here as I am one of the most liberal guys who post on here. I have dated Jews, Black Girls, Latinos, Irish, Italians, Catholics, Protestants, etc. If I were a bigot I don't think I would have gone out with most of these people.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

I am so fucking sick of all this candy coated bullshit.

I get discriminated against all the time.

It's a stupid fucking ignorant mentality.

And I have about had enough of the overwhelming selfishness of those same stupid fucking ignorant people who don't know how to read, apparently, prefer fantasies to reality, and seem to spend all their time sitting in their underground bunkers wearing tinfoil hats cooking up the next crazy bullshit story about Obama.

This is the most narcissistic, selfish, egotistical, self-absorbed citizenry on the planet. It has to be.

TRUTH 101 said...

I stand by what I wrote 100 percent Patrick. For you to say that the right doesn't make an effort to pander to bigots and idiots either shows you to be a blind fool or a fucking apologist for these assholes.

Every time they mention welfare the image isn't of a single Dad trying to raise his kids and make ends meet. It's a black mother with multiple kids and no husband. Willie Horton ad ring a bell Patrick? The right wing feux news Fox network giving airtime to idiots calling our President everything but the N word?


There is no defense for the bullshit racist innuendo Obama haters use. It shows they have neither substance as you accuse me of. All they have is bullshit attacks on the man's heritage because they're either too stupid to think of anything else. They know they have nothing else. Or they are just racist mother fuckers that don't like the idea of a black man being President.

dmarks said...

Toad said: "If you make under $250,000, AKA middle class, there is no tax hike on the table for you. "

In his campaign, Obama promised many times to hike gas taxes. This affects everyone, including the middle class. He is also favor of the carbon tax (often called cap and trade), which will clobber the middle class.

"In fact, there is no actual hike in income taxes at all."

When in the Senate, he promised to oppose tax hikes on the middle class. He said he wanted only take hikes on the very rich. But then he turned around and supported tax hikes on those making $40,000+ a year. That's $40,000 not $400,000. That shows how he keeps the income tax promises.

"The temporary Bush tax cut is merely going to expire"

Actually, it was intended to be a permanent tax cut. Intentionally getting rid of it amounts to a tax hike.

"Obama knows that you can't start 2 wars without paying for it"

Bush knew too. National defense is one of the most basic and justified expenses. There's plenty in the budget to pay for it.

"and will therefore not extend that tax cut."

Actually, I think he's just greedy. He's got plenty of tax money already to do what is necessary.

"Obama never said anything about giving free health care to illegal immigrants and even if he did that does not matter."

1) Obama named a large number of uninsured Americans that must be covered. This large number included illegal aliens.

2) If he said it it does not matter? I guess you must think he is a real liar who never keeps promises.

"Obama does not write the laws, Congress does."

Convenient. If Obama approves a law you dislike, blame it on Congress, right?

"What matters is what it says in the House and Senate bills and I know these mouth breathing, moron, tea baggers can't read but if they could"

I've seen one of the protests. These "tea baggers" show a better grasp of the issues than the current administration. Despite the photogenic but tiny minority of them who have really stupid signs.

You really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the tea party protesters. Hence the wild assertion that they are illiterate. What next, the "Fact" that they have 3 arms and two heads?


"No I never use the N word or say "thats so gay"."

But you have no problem tossing around a slur that is used for the mentally disabled.

"And for the record, I didn’t say anything disparaging about handi-tards!"

Hate speech is so cool isn't it.

"YOu do realize that there are differences between the races right?"

So David Duke has tried passionately to convince us. But really, race matters only to racists. In fact, there are "internal" genetic factors that link different groups of humans without regard to something so silly and arbitrary as skin color.

"Admitting these differences" is one thing I've seen often from real hardcore racists. They seem to think that science is on their side. But all they have to offer is psuedo-science.

"You are barking up the wrong tree here as I am one of the most liberal guys who post on here."

Liberalism does not preclude racism. After all, the most blatant racist policy in today's America, racial quotas in hiring, is pushed pretty much by the liberal side.

That being said, your growing list of simplistic racial stereotypes is actually closer to what I have seen from some fringe right-wingers.

dmarks said...

Truth: I remember the Willie Horton ad. It never occured to me that I was supposed to think that black = criminal.

But the Dems objections to the ad brought the black = criminal meme out in full force.

TRUTH 101 said...

You're as ridiculous as Patrick on this one Dmarks. I suppose you only read Playboy for the articles also.

Patrick M said...

101: I'm going to say point blank they don't intentionally pander to bigots and idiots. There are a few that probably do, and bigots and idiots will always find some philosophy to glom onto.

As for welfare moms, I always seemed to see a lot of white women mixed in there as well. Willie Horton was a fucking scumbag that democraps magically made into a race issue. Fox News has something called balance, which means they have kooks from both sides.

Now, as for trying to disparage the president because of his race, you have both my support and probably Dmarks as well. But as long as you keep firing off these stupid fucking blanket statements, we can't address real racism. Instead, we have to fight over definitions because you're to busy flinging shit at the wall that the really rotting shit gets covered up.

Oh, and I don't read Playboy. It costs money, and there are no triple-penetration shots. But if I did, I'd probably read the articles afterward.

TRUTH 101 said...

Well I sure as hell didn't see any Democrats invited to speak at these tea party events. I didn't see many Blacks at them either. But I sure saw plenty of despicable posters of President Obama as a witch doctor Patrick. And all your freaking republican elected officials making speeches weren't making a point of telling the creeps holding these signs to put them away. They were repeating bullshit about "big government" that their party helped grow to new heights.

The ignoring of these despicable posters makes tham as culpable as the creeps that made them Patrick.

Patrick M said...

101: My Republican elected officials? Who the fuck are you talking about?

Without specifics, this is just brainless generalization. I could probably do the same thing with anti-war nut rallies during the bush years with just as hateful damned death to Bush signs and your freaking Democrat elected officials doing the same damned thing.

So give up on the selective outrage. I'm not overly worked up over either instance.