Monday, August 16, 2010

The Mosque

I've been pretty hands off on issuing an opinion on the construction of a mosque on the edge of Ground Zero.  This is mainly for a couple reasons.   First, this is more of a New York issue than a national issue, and second, I wanted to hear more about the reasons and the people behind it.

The stated goal of building the mosque is to help heal and bring understanding in the wake of 9/11.  My initial reaction was that if this is really the case, cool beans, but I'll let NYC decide.

However, the other theory as to why to build the mosque in this location is that it will, to the Islamic world, stand as a monument to the conquest of the center of American imperialism and capitalism.  And based on the imam at the center of the mosque effort, I'm suspecting this is the case.

The blithering idiot Mayor Michael Bloomberg has come out in favor of the mosque, as have various others on the left.

The right's default reaction is based on the idea that this is an attempt to signal said conquest.

Many of the 9/11 families oppose it as a slap in the face, which to any Islamic figure trying to heal deep wounds with the people of America, should be a damned good reason not to build it there.

And President Obama, unsurprisingly, acknowledged the right of these Muslims to build their Mosque.  Then, when pressed for his opinion on the appropriateness of the Mosque, voted PRESENT, with incessant revisions.

So the question is, what should be done?

First of all, there is no legal basis to deny a religion the right to build a place of worship.  In fact, there's an amendment specifically there for that purpose.  So unless there's some kind of zoning issue that halts its construction, there is no legal means that can stop this.  It sucks, but the price of our freedom is that the government is specifically forbidden from legislating the mosque away on religious grounds, even such a peaceful and tolerant  religion as Islam (warning, very graphic irony).

Obviously, any criminal activity to "stop them" is out, because that, very simply because that's the kind of narrow bullshit that extremist religions and certifiable nutjobs do.

As for legal grounds that could be used to stop this, the only hope lies in investigating the funds and people involved and finding a legitimate terror link.  I suspect there's enough evidence out there to continue investigating, but not enough to stop the cash yet.  Of course, that requires the feds to do it.

And that would require leadership.  From the Obama White House.

And leadership (ha) from (ha) Barack (HA) Obama....

(okay, I know that was a cruel joke, but....)

So here's the two question of the day:

Can we really trust this imam, and a group, and a religion that has no problem ignoring public opinion when their stated goal was peaceful coexistence and a healing of wounds?

And if you say you can trust them, why?  

Me, not so much.  To clarify, I think there are peaceful Muslims, and where they exist, they need to be embraced.  But as for trusting the religion, their recent history says we should do otherwise.


soapster said...

"Many of the 9/11 families oppose it as a slap in the face, which to any Islamic figure trying to heal deep wounds with the people of America, should be a damned good reason not to build it there."

What the 9/11 families should be opposing is not an Islamic Cultural center 2 blocks down but rather their own goddamn government whose emperialistic ventures are the most prevalent threat to them. They should be rising up and revolting against the very government that is selling 84 F-15 fighter jets to the country from whence 15 of the 19 hijackers came from.

American Values and the Constitution....christ these citizens haven't a clue.

Toad734 said...

1.It's no different than what the NRA did when they held conventions in cities after there had been school shootings and I don't recall you condemning them...Of course those did happen in the 90s and there was no such thing as blogging but they did it and said they did it because the Constitution said they could.

2. It's not a mosque.
3. It's not going to be built on ground zero. Its being built at the site of a former Burlington Coat Factory. In fact, it's not going to be built on any site of a building that has recently been demolished or destroyed as there is a building currently occupying that property right now.
4. This is not the same sect of Islam that you are used to seeing on TV; they are not Wahhabists. Its more like saying Jews for Jesus or Kabbalah is Judaism or that Mormons are Christians.
5. See the 1st Amendment.
6. Al-Qaeda is not building this community center.

So what's the excuse for fighting the building of a mosque for the people in TN or California or any other place where Mosques are being planned?

If you don't want a mosque to go in there, offer more for the property and buy it yourself and then I'll decide if I want to protest what you want to build there.

By the way, if a strip club was going in the same spot I would defend their right to build as well.

And a message to Mr. Gingrich who is asking why we can't build a Christian Church in Mecca: They are a backwards country who beheads people for having sex and cuts off people's hands for stealing...This is America and we are better than that. By denying them the right to build a mosque here you are acting as the Taliban would...Not that I really see that much difference between the Taliban and Newt and the boys with statements like that.

And the question he should be asking is that if we do deny their mosque here, does that mean the Christian churches in Jerusalem and Eqypt, Lebanon and Jordan should be torn down? After all, Churches almost where ever they are built are signs of Christian conquest in place of Peagan and or Islamic or Jewish beliefs...Ever been to Mexico?

Pot and the usual.

soapster said...

That is probably the most reasoned well thought out response I've ever read of yours Toad. Good job.

dmarks said...

Soap: The US is engaged in anti-imperialistic efforts, and the hijackers were enemies of the Saudi government.

Toad: It is a mosque. And its former name, Cordoba House, specifically connoted aggression and conquest and oppression (Cordoba being the name of a colonial outpost of the Muslim empire in Spain, with a stolen church used for a mosque).

soapster said...

"Emergencies [and I would add fear] have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded."

The United States government wants the citizenry under a constant state of fear and panic.

The pundits do their bidding and the fucking sheeple fall in line. This is the sort of obnoxious panic that gave us the patriot act and tarp and a healthy dose of unconstitutional crap before it.

"Anti-Imperialistic efforfts"....ROTFLMFAO.

dmarks said...

Yes, anti-imperialistic efforts. The US has been involved in many of these in the post WW2 period, while engaging very little actual imperialism.

I suppose someone like you, consumed by paranoia. Here's a fresh roll of tinfoil for your hat.


Toad: You aren't doing very well here in the fact department.

I did some checking. Yes, it is a mosque. And yes it is at ground zero, if you count ground zero as the site of buildings in NYC destroyed by the terrorists on 9/11.

Your #6 is misleading. While Al Quada is not involved, the imam involved has close ties to other terrorist organizations such as Hamas, and has a track record of antisemitism.

soapster said...

Paranoia? Me? Hardly. I'm far more interested in facts. The facts of America's post WWII influence do not support your claim dmarks.

Toad734 said...


Wrong again as usual.

Remember Faux news, aside from Rupert Murdochs interests, is owned by Saudi Muslims...Remember you can't trust Muslims so you should should stick to traditional news sources owned by Jews.

Seriously, where do you get this information?? No farm subsidies, ground zero??? It's like you are on a different planet or something. I assume Obama is a Muslim from Kenya??

soapster said...

"Your #6 is misleading. While Al Quada is not involved, the imam involved has close ties to other terrorist organizations such as Hamas, and has a track record of antisemitism.

You have something to support these claims beyond the spin zone talking points? On the former, not eliciting or rather towing the US line by declaring them a terrorist organization does not define "close ties". And even if he knows people who are members of Hamas, etc...that does not mean he is guilty of any crime. Certainly the evidence to support his pursuit of a more moderate brand of Islam is well documented (books, etc.) As for anti-semitism...seems anyone who dares to question our foreign policy and blind defense of Israel is deemed a goddamn anti-semite these days so what of it? These charges of course coming from the war hawks and people that bitch about leftists overplaying the race card.

Further, it is not on ground zero but at best 2 blocks away (southeast corner I believe). I've seen pictures of the proposed area and there are a flurry of businesses in the area including a strip club and churches.

Beth said...

No birthday posting this year?

dmarks said...

Toad: I am 100% correct on this. Check the facts.

Remember Faux News? I've never even seen such a channel. I didn't even mention it. If you want to attack me over a news organization I've not seen or mentioned, be my guest, but it makes you look like a boob.

"Seriously, where did you get this information?"

I verified that the mosque was indeed a mosque, and where it was located, by looking at the Cordoba projects own web site. It's called researching original sources. It's a lot better than making up stuff and accusing those who have done the research of being "wrong".

"I assume Obama is a Muslim from Kenya".

Ah. I see you have yet another entirely new argument.

(By the way, yes there are farm subsidies, but so much of what are called farm subsidies are actually not a subsidy at all, and incur $0 cost to taxpayers).


Soapster: What are "spin zone talking points"? Since I have made no reference to these, it is like you are responding to someone else.

"...that does not make him guilty of a crime..."

I never said he was guilty of any crimes. Again, do you have such poor reading comprehension, or are you responding to someone who accused him of any?

"...blind defense of Israel..."

Your own terms get pretty close to antisemitism. "Blind defense of Israel" is a code-word for antisemites for the US policy of insisting that Israelis have a right to live. The alternative is the extermination of the Israelis.

Back to the Imam, you make it sound like he is antisemitic, and you are joining with him.

" what of it?"

Ah. A proud antisemite.

"..war hawks..."

What war hawks?

"...race card..."

It was you that started bashing Jews, so the race card is yours that you are playing.

".... not on ground zero..."

The site is specifically one of the buildings at Ground Zero that was damaged irreparably when the planes hit.

Time to let go of your hatred of Jews...ahem Israelis. Shave off the Hitler moustache, Nazi-boy.

Toad734 said...

There is a mosque within the community center but it isn't a mosque that is going to have guys on minarets calling to prayer 5 times a day.

It's 2 blocks away from ground zero. There is currently a building there now, which was not destroyed on 9/11. You are being lied to!

How is antisemitism wrong but being islamaphobic somehow better?? Does being prejudice against another religion make your religious freedoms invalid? If so, most Christian churches in the south should be closed down as they are the ones protesting against this and many other mosques. If only Christians were as tolerant as Jesus commanded them to be.

dmarks said...

Toad: No where did I say that I disprove of this mosque. You leaped to conclusions.

"You are being lied to!"

You don't need to tell me that. I've come to expect this from your comments, without you telling me what you are doing.

It's 2 blocks away from ground zero"

That was a perfect example of it. You put forth a claim that has nothing to do with the truth.

It is quite reasonable, once you look at the truth, to say that the mosque site is in fact at ground zero. The Burlington building was one of those hit and wrecked by the 9/11 hijacked planes.

From Wikipedia:

You may lie to me, but I tell the truth.

This being said.... though I know that this is a mosque and it is at ground zero, and that the imam at times raves like a genocidal kook, I see no reason to oppose it.

dmarks said...

Missing wikipedia from above:

In 2001, in the 9/11 attacks after hijacked Flight 175 penetrated through a tower of The World Trade Center, part of the plane's landing gear and fuselage came out the north side of the tower and crashed through the roof and two of the floors of the Burlington Coat Factory at 45–47 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, (600 feet (180 meters)) north of the former World Trade Center. The plane parts destroyed three floor beams, and severely compromised the building's internal structure. Nine years later the building was part of a national controversy, as efforts to build a Muslim center and mosque at the site as the "Cordoba House" sparked a national controversy"

Toad734 said...,+New+York,+NY+10007&gl=us&ei=A8J2TO7WBdKInQeJpaidCw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ8gEwAA

Vessy St, Barclay Street then Park Place...2 Blocks...Standing building.

Site is 2 blocks from WTC = Truth.
Building still standing = Truth.

You can start calling me Snopes if you want.

dmarks said...

You are lying again.

The Ground Zero terror site in lower Manhattan is larger than a pinpoint, you know. Or perhaps you do not.

Snopes? Nah. I'll call you Burger King, for all the whoppers you are serving. Yes, I have been lied to again. (Which reminds me, I did catch Snopes in a lie on one issue).

This being said, I do not mind this mosque being built at Ground Zero.

Toad734 said...

Yes, ground zero was world trade North and South tower; The north tower being blocks south of where the community center is proposed and the south Tower is a block further away. Thanks for pointing that out.

dmarks said...

So now you know that the mosque is at ground zero.

Toad734 said...

No, its not, the proposed community center which contains a mosque is two blocks away, just like the map shows. I will be there in October, would you like me to take another photo for you?