Tuesday, December 9, 2008

Is Patriotism Made in the USA?

Tao over at A Radical Perspective dropped this short crosspost off in my direction, and it got me to thinking. So read up and I'll see you below:

Since Christmas is fast approaching I think it might behoove all of us to realize that WE can make a difference! So, remember this as you go out shopping:

"There are 293 million people living in the United States. If each one would shift $20 a month in spending from foreign made products to American made products, that would create 5 million new jobs."---Made in the USA.com

So rather than waiting around for Washington to solve our problems or waiting around till 2010 to vote for the candidate that will represent our values let "vote" with our pocket book; lets start a revolution one person at a time!

Lets purchase $20 worth of MADE IN THE USA goods for each and every person in your household and or each and every person on your Christmas gift list!

I remember when "Buy American" was last a major force in the American consciousness. Wal-Mart was touting it as the right thing to do. Yes, Wal-Mart, which for you of the liberal persuasion is the destroyer of unions, the consumer of the family business, and the raper of innocent third world children and Arkansas. Since then we have seriously gone global, and much of our manufacturing (especially the unskilled stuff) has set sail.

But perhaps it is time to look at this idea again. I'm not talking looking back and trying to capture the old days when you went up town to the local [whatever] store to get whatever it was that they sold, then you used it until it was reduced to shavings. For better or for worse, the disposable economy is here to stay. What I'm talking about is engaging in the debate of quality vs quantity with the American public.

What this means is that the American companies that want to compete need to have the best shit out there. And many of them do. And you have to make it worth our while. Be the anti-Wal-Mart in a sense, that is focus on taking care of people. And if you happen to be a company owned by investors of other countries, you can join in too. Just show us how American-made your product is.

I'll bring up the car companies as an example. I have worked at a plant that manufactures cast aluminum wheels (me, a forklift, a hundred gallons of 1300 degree molten aluminum) for Honda, Ford, and others. I've worked at a factory making seats for Honda. And I've worked at Honda itself. And my father has benefitted from tons of business from these and many other factories.

That's not to say we'll all jump on this bandwagon. I'll still keep being the cheap bastard that I am (and I am a chap bastard). I'll still take the kids for an hour-and-a-half sojourn through the Wal-Mart gargantu-store. But I'm going to keep this in mind.

And I'm going to keep focused on my cause, the FairTax. Why do I bring this up in this post? Two reasons. First, it's the FairTax. And second, while we can shift some of our purchasing power to buy more American and buy local, we are becoming a country that punishes successful business by taxing and regulating them, often for no other reason than to please some whining group. The FairTax would put foreign and domestically produced items on the same footing, as the tax would be the same on both items rather than lower for the foreign company that escapes our system while the American companies get threatend with windfall taxes. A tax system that doesn't discriminate against American companies would do things for American manufacturing that would astound.

So wherever you are, when you can, keep an eye out for that American label and buy, buy buy! If we get out of this recession, we'll drag everybody in the world with us. Except maybe Michigan. But as an Ohioan (and the taste of football still on my lips), who gives a shit?


TAO said...

No one is asking you to buy anything of lesser quality as a favor.

The first way we destroy our economic base is by punishing companies by expecting them to sell to Walmart. Walmart insures their profitability at the cost of their suppliers. But do not confuse affordability with quality. There is a big difference between "Good" and "Good Enough."

To be concerned about taxes means you had to have made a profit and any small business that sells to Walmart does not have to worry about making a profit.

It is easier to point the finger at the government and blame them for all the woes of our economic system because otherwise you would have to admit that mass consumerism did not benefit this country at all. Mass consumerism led to the lowering of our standard of living, the increase in our debt, and the destruction of our economic diversity.

You need to quit pointing at the Big Three and using them as examples of everything that is wrong with American manufacturers. You yourself acknowledge that your company makes parts for all the automakers thus if all the automakers get the same parts from the same people then obviously the issue of the Big Three is something unique to them.

Lower your tax burden, lower your dependence on big government and big business by being a patriot....shop local and buy local.

Its that simple. $20 a month and you could be part of a revolution....you could actually be a founding father of a totally new way of life...look at your kids and ask yourself "are they worth $20 a month?"

Satyavati devi dasi said...

(and the taste of football still on my lips)

Patrick, I am so not going here, because when I read that all I could think of was Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis... and I don't mean together by themselves, either. And any other cogent comment I might have had on anything else in the post was just vanished in the mist.

So I think I'll recuse myself from this particular discussion and keep my football fantasies to myself.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

...and Brett Favre, and Jerome Bettis, and don't forget Moose Johnston, he of the most beautiful blue eyes of all time. And Warren Sapp, cause he's funny as hell. And Jack DelRio, cause someone needs to be directing all this traffic to the end zone...

OK, now that's enough.

Toad734 said...

Where have you been?? Regulating what? I wish we had been regulating the Financial, Mortgage and Auto Industry a little more. Not enough regulation is why we are in the mess we are in today. If European companies, with their tight regulations, especially environmental, can compete against companies here, then we, with less regulation, can compete in the world but not when people like you continue to shop at Walmart.

Time and time again I have shown you that its not regulation or taxes which force companies to close plants here and outsource or open up plants in China, it's greed. The people at the top can simply make more money by using slave child labor in plants that are allowed to feed their employees led for lunch and then put that in the products they send back to us. The cost of the goods don't go down, the consumer, for the most part, pays what he always has and sometimes more once this mfg has moved over seas. Levis, Converse are perfect examples of this; since those products have been outsourced, the prices have gone up and the CEO of those companies has been able to pay himself more. Corporate tax rates have only gone down over the last 55 years; 55 years ago, our economy was strong, the middle class had jobs and everyone had an opportunity and rich people were still rich and everyone was happy. How did corporate America reward Americans who allowed their tax rates to fall so drastically? By shipping their jobs overseas so they can line their own pockets.

In fact, like Obama says, we need a tax code which penalizes companies who outsource. In essence we need more taxes not less taxes.

BB-Idaho said...

Sorry, didn't read..got distracted by your Christmas music, especially the old German Still, still, still, Weil's Kindlein schlafen will. Sounds like the Manhattan Steamroller version. Beautiful song I first heard in the far north midwest. Even that
funny-looking liberal curmudgeon
Garrison Keillor sings it on his Christmas CD. :)

You have got to be kidding me. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Patrick M said...

Tao: ...look at your kids and ask yourself "are they worth $20 a month?

Is it ok if that answer changed by the minute? :)

Like I said, it's something worthy to consider. 20 years ago, the "Buy American" was essentially a union slogan that Wal-Mart used (and probably pissed them off). But now, I'm getting closer and closer (as in I looked up Honda on MadeintheUSA.com and they were proudly there). Of course, it will depend if I have the $20 to spend for the goods (that's iffy right now). At this time, I'm really only buying food, essentials, and the cheapest things to meet my needs. Example: I need to replace my coffee pot (carafe cracked). Who has one for under $10? (checked, would cost $40-50)

*listening for groan*

Saty: Whoa. TMI.

Toad: Where have you been?? Regulating what?

Well, let's start with the New Deal. There's the AAA, CAA, CCC, CCC, CWA, EBA, FAP, FCA, FCC, FDIC, FERA, FHA, FMP, FSA, FTP, FWP, HOLC, NIRA, NLRB, NRA, NYA, PRRA, PWA, RA, REA, RFC, SEC, SSB , TVA, USHA, and the WPA. Now I know some of them were found unconstitutional, and some morphed (CAA is now the FAA), but it's the wholesale idea that the government needs a hand in every damned thing that makes it hostile to business in this country.

And then there's the taxes (which you conveniently ignore). To hire an employee at $10/hr costs $15/hr after you figure in matching, unemployment, Workers Comp, health care, (and if they're union, figure in scale and pension too), etc, not to mention all the resources in keeping track of every federal, state, county, municipal, and school tax law that applies to those employees. And I haven't even gotten to the business taxes (and their associated compliance costs) that they pass on to us.

Compare that to a country where you can pay $25/day without all the crap I listed above and it's considered a good wage for that country. I'm surprised more companies haven't left.

I have shown you that its not regulation or taxes which force companies to close plants here and outsource or open up plants in China, it's G!@R!E!E!D!!! [ridiculous emphasis added].

No, it's the profit motive. That's what businesses exist to do. If they can make something for less and we buy it for the same (or higher) price, then good for them.

...55 years ago, our economy was strong...

I'll point out that we were still riding high from the war years, and the economy sure wasn't nearly as global as it is now.

Corporate tax rates have only gone down over the last 55 years...

The actual tax rate has, yes. But the associated costs (listed above) that comprise the total picture have gone to the ridiculous.

That brings us back to the point Tao brought up originally. If we start shopping for the stuff that is made here, we can begin to reverse that trend.

In fact, like Obama says, we need a tax code which penalizes companies who outsource. In essence we need more taxes not less taxes.


Seriously? Only if you want whole companies to move overseas and sell their stuff back here, taking their investment dollars with them. And Obama's really getting his socialist groove on when he talks about taxing behavior.

BB: Yeah, that was the Mannheim version. I have a version in my CD collection in German by the Vienna Boys Choir. It's the best.

YHGTBKM: Thanks for the moonbattery. Although what a sentence like "I think your website sucks and your pro-life causes young women to abandon babies in dumpsters." has to do with my site or this post escaped me. So bye, until you can show the slightest bit of intelligence.

NOTE: If anybody wants this moonbat spammer's full comment, drop me an email and I'll send it to you for a laugh.

Arthurstone said...

Patrick typed:

'Compare that to a country where you can pay $25/day without all the crap I listed above and it's considered a good wage for that country. I'm surprised more companies haven't left.'

Hey who needs all that 'crap' anyway?. Why wait? We could all move to Bangladesh and become ship breakers.


Or China and go into recycling:


TAO said...

Let me ask a question...are consumers and employees somehow related? If I am not mistaken consumers have to work to have the money to be consumers, thus that also makes them employees.

If consumers consume then that means they went and bought something and by buying they created a sale and a profit for a company.

If all of the sudden we switched to your pay system, then exactly how much consuming would these employees do...and thus how much profit would their be.

Now, when companies move overseas their costs decrease and they are able to sell more because the price is lowered...and so their profits increase. But when you have consumers who have quit working in manufacturing because those higher paying jobs are now overseas and you replaced them with service sector jobs well...you have yourself in quite a mess to say the least.

So, to cover yourself you flood the market with cheap easy credit and that allows you to party on....

yep, Bangladesh here we come...

TAO said...


The head of NASDAQ has just been arrested for running a 550 billion ponzi scheme. Hundreds of home buyers, mortgage brokers, and lenders are being prosecuted for fraud in regards to the current financial mess.

Its not what people are being paid that is this country's problem its the moral standards by which the players in our economy operate with.

Shaw Kenawe said...


You're absolutely right. If people are immoral and cheat at the highest levels, then people are justified in not wanting to participate. These people know more that the average investors and they can devise any number of schemes to enrich themselves and the few who can play the big stakes with the--and do this without fear of punishment!

How many of the big players have been indicted and now face trials for what has happened on Wall Street?

We the people who go about our lives, working, saving, being prudent and wise in our financial affairs, are being hit hard for the crimes of greed and corruption that the big guys perpetrate.

Take a good hard look at how capitalism tends to reward the corrupt wealthy and powerful and crush the little guy.

PS. Meanwhile the sourthern legislators admit to wanting to break the unions, and therefore, have voted against the bailout.

Remember who those senators are--they're from sourthern states where FOREIGN automakers have built non-union facilities.

One thing we can count on in this country--the South will always protect its economic life, even if it means the possibility of economic destruction for the rest of the country (i.e., see the history of slavery).

Shaw Kenawe said...

Sorry for all the stupid typos in my last post. I'm using a borrowed laptop, since my new computer of 1 1/2 months is in the hospital!


Patrick M said...

Arthur: Seems this reminds me of where WE were before the industrial revolution. It's not a good thing, but it's inevitable in countries with crippling poverty, scarce resouces, and an opportunity. And (in the case of the shipbreakers) we have done what we could do.

It will take them time (and money, and outrage, and education, and lives) to get to where we are.

Tao: ...are consumers and employees somehow related? If I am not mistaken consumers have to work to have the money to be consumers, thus that also makes them employees.

I think you just answered your own question. And I've thought through this further since deciding that bailing out banks to get the credit flowing was a bad idea. And I figured out why the credit market dried up. It did so because of good old market forces. The market constricted credit because we are overextended, and it should only get flowing again when we get the junk out of the market. So I

Now why you're arguing with me on this is beyond me, because I think you and I agree. We're just approaching it from a different direction.

(BTW, coffee maker was $15, B&D, made in China)

As for corrupt people at the top, there will be some. But it becomes a BIGGER problem when the corruption lies with the people that are supposed to nail the corruption in business. Of course, as Gov Blago and the Chicago Machine has shown, it's not likely.

Shaw: I refer you back to the point above. For Buy American to work, we have to get control of the government back.

As for your point about the South, the same can be said for the Michigan delegation who's all gung-ho to get the bailout through, as well as every senator and rep that gets that good ol' UAW support. And they'll keep trying to sell the Bad Three to the government, even if it means the possibility of economic destruction for the rest of the country (i.e., see the history of the Soviet Union).

That's why I apply principle and say it's not the job of the government to bail out any damned industry.

BTW, if it's made in America, it's an American product.

Oh, and LEARN HOW TO TYPE!!!!!! :)

Toad734 said...

With regards to taxes, if we put a tariff on shit that is outsourced it will become more expensive to make it overseas and cheaper to have it made here, which means jobs, which means a strong economy for everyone, not just the super wealthy. Do you really think the CEO of Nike is going to move to China? Not a chance. If you live here and run a business, you shouldn't be allowed to move it overseas or at least not allowed to move it overseas without paying the consequences. Maybe we could tax outsourced items to pay for the health care of the people these companies fired in order to outsource.

Why did the government have to create all those regulations after the depression? That is the question you have to ask yourself. You can't let these guys run wild; they will rip us off any chance they get, get rich, while making us poor. It happened in the 20s, it happened with the S&Ls and it has happened now with our financial and mortgage institutions. If you don't regulate them enough you get the Great Depression, the S&L scandal, Enron and the mortgage crisis. All because of relaxed regulation. Most of these people don't even know what they are doing. I wish it wasn't the case but it is. Rick Wagoner does not know how to run a car company, giving loans to the homeless was a bad idea. Obviously these people need to have their hands held.

So that’s the country you want to live in? The one where you are paid $25 a day? Is that really what you want for you and your children?

Stop pretending that a company with Union Employees can't be profitable. GM and Ford have been profitable for almost the entire time they have been in existence up until today and have done so with Union Employees. Free trade, another brilliant conservative idea, and the big threes lost connection to the consumer are the main problems here. And thanks for pointing out how much health care costs these companies. If we had nationalized health care like Japan, Germany, France, etc. our companies here could become competitive over night. When you say costs of doing business has gone up what you are talking about is health care. I am glad you are finally starting to realize that.

You still live in a naive world where you think all businesses are ethical and everyone there knows what they are doing and have your best interest at heart. No one has a problem with making profits but you can only outsource so many jobs to the point where there are no jobs left in the US and then the people here can no longer afford to buy those products. Henry Ford had a much better plan; pay people enough so they can afford to buy the products they are making for you.

Arthurstone said...

Patrick ventured:

'Arthur: Seems this reminds me of where WE were before the industrial revolution.'

More like what happens in an society without rules and regulations. Given the undeniable progress this nation has made (backsliding during various Republican administrations notwithstanding) many companies choose to import their problems abroad where safeguards aren't in place.

Because they can.

Companies most often don't do the right thing except when forced to do so.

Shaw Kenawe said...

Companies are like nations. They do what is in their best interests. Period. That explains why we decide to topple a horrible dictator "who tortured and gassed his own people" in one country and ignored other monsterous dictators in other countries.

It was in the US's interest to take a stake in Iraq's oil reserves in order to keep us big players on the world stage. Getting rid of African dictators doesn't keep us stronger economically.

Companies are very patriotic so long as they make money. If it's a choice between patriotism and profits, guess what a majority of CEOs will choose?

Patrick M said...

Toad: ...if we put a tariff on shit that is outsourced...

And the price of everything goes up. Protectionism wasn't the answer in 1930, and it's not the answer now.

If you live here and run a business, you shouldn't be allowed to...

Why the fuck not? You want the government to control the behaviors of individuals? That's essentially what you're proposing here. You bitch about war measures (Patriot Act, FISA) which are limited in scope, under oversight, and may disappear within a year, but you have no damned problem with wholesale manipulation of the market by the government to protect one group at the expense of another. And the solution to every problem you see is to tax someone. It's no wonder that even an inept GOP can keep regaining power. All it takes is someone who can articulate conservatism and people run to them.

You can't let these guys run wild...

I can actually agree with you on this point. I'm not in favor of eliminating every regulation out there. But streamlining the process, eliminating unnecessary regs, sunsetting some of them, and getting responsibility and accountability within the companies themselves (with the threat of government intervention) is the direction we need to go.

For each company that "will rip us off any chance they get" there's plenty of companies that are just a little more enlightened, where they work with their employees rather than against them. To ring us back to the original topic, those are the companies we should be supporting with dollars.

If you don't regulate them enough...

Wrong-o. You have to not only regulate, but regulate correctly. Just as no regulation led to the great depression, it's the overabundance of conflicting bullshit regs, combined with agenda regs, combined with Washington bullshit.

And I don't assume all CEOs are good. But don't assume they're all bad either.

I'd write more, but I have to go.

Satyavati devi dasi said...

I live in one of these Great And Glorious States where unions are verboten.

As a result I and my colleagues work under some of the worst conditions in the nation. We have no representation, no advocacy, no protection. We're at the mercy of our employers, who know it and never let us forget it.

Our patients suffer because there are no unions to push for mandatory ratios. They're unsafe because we're worked short, because we work mandatory overtime, and because our employers won't put the necessary measures in place because it costs money to do that.

The South remains under a plantation mentality, where workers are kept down and as powerless as possible in order for companies to exploit them to the greatest degree and wring every available penny out.

I guess that would make us the quintessential example of The American Way, right?

Myself said...

If Detroit would start putting out some good cars maybe people would buy them.
I would

Anonymous said...

Do you like going home from work at 5 o’clock? Do you like having health care benefits? Do you like having paid time off? You may not be in a union, but if you have any of that, you can thank union workers for it.
You can also thank them for all the trouble we are in right now. And you can thank them for the CEO'S filling their pockets with your hard earned cash. And you can also think them for all the Bankruptcies we are having right now.
Any questions.

TAO said...

One of the issues conservatives and liberals have to deal with nowadays is the individual motivation. If you look at all the issues facing this country right now you realize that all of them were caused by a lack of ethics and principles on the part of individuals (I believe it is known as greed). My biggest example of this is one guy I know who is a diehard anti government conservative...and yet he owns apartment complexes and his number one client is the government via section 8. I love ribbing him about if he had to depend on the free market for setting the rent on his slum property he would see his income cut in half.

While he grips about the government and now unions, he sees nothing wrong with himself benefitting from government personally...he just gets mad when others do.

Why do republicans hate unions so much? Why do republicans hate organized employees so much? It wasn't unions that caused the meltdown of Wall Street and Republicans have no problems bailing them out.

Hmmm...curious minds what to know!!!

Patrick, it might have something to do with the fact that big business doesn't like the competition at the trough of public funding and government influence....if big labor is an issue then big business should even be a bigger issue.

Toad734 said...

So you are saying that your shoes are now cheaper becuase they are made in China? That your Levis are cheaper now that they are made in Mexico? Not a chance. Besides, if people actually had jobs, they would be able to buy a $100 DVD player instead of Walmarts $50 DVD player which is really only worth about $20. Oh, and if you are that poor that you can only buy a $50 DVD player, you don't need a DVD player, you need food.

So exactly who gets screwed when Americans have jobs? I don't get that? If the CEO of Nike makes shoes here, instead of China, then all those people who work for Nike would be buying his products. He may not make as high of a percentage of profit but he still makes a profit, he is still rich and he would have more consumers to buy his goods; more sales = more money, higher stock price,he still has more money than he could ever spend and everybody wins.

I don't know why you think taking away wealth from one person so another one can horde it is any better than what I am proposing. Do you want to live in a world with no middle class? That's what it sounds like to me. Why do you not want jobs for Americans?

No maybe all CEOs aren't evil but if they aren't that, they sure are stupid.

Patrick M said...

Tried to give up the argument due to apathy, but....

Saty: Actually, your problem is twofold.

First, you're in an area that could actually use a little union shakeup. The purpose of the unions is to respond when management is unresponsive and adversarial (in other words, what you face). And the reason that management is so unresponsive is below:

Second, you're wedged in an industry that is not competitive in quality, but in price, as health care is largely paid by people (insurance companies and the government) other than the people that care about the quality (patients). Some free market might also help you.

Myself: Detroit is putting out better cars now. But they didn't for years and lost some market share. Add to that shifting tastes due to the gas price spike, decreasing incomes due to the recession, the credit market freezing up due to the subprime loan mess, and the overhead of the unions (who are less about protecting workers and more about maintaining power) and you get the mess they're in.

Frank: That's what I was thinking. Almost calls for a post.

Patrick M said...

Tao: A couple of points. First, it's not the conservatives that wanted to bail out Wall Street. There were plenty of Republicans on board (Boehner, Bush, and most egregiously McCain) who are proving themselves less and less conservative ever day. A true conservative wants to shrink the size of the government trough, period, not just crowd out one group.

Second, the problem with unions is not that they organize workers. It's that they eventually become more destructive than constructive. As I pointed out above, Satyavati (and her patients) would be better served by union challenges to the companies that have forgotten quality in the messed up field of health care. But the UAW is like a case of ass cancer on the automakers, making it that much harder for them to get some bootstrap in hand and start pulling.

Toad: Do you just post the same arguments over and over? I swear I've read at least half this comment before...

Why do you not want jobs for Americans?

For some reason, you equate American jobs with unions, and protectionism, and government supplying or regulating who provides said jobs and at what price they provide them.

So since you seem to think that that I'm against American jobs, here's the bullet point solution.

1. FairTax. Takes tax an associated cost burdens off business, making it cheaper to work here.

2. Repeal at least half of the employment legislation, including the minimum wage. This allows teens and part-timers to be hired at rates consummate with their performance, while allowing valuable employees to be paid what their worth. But do not repeal that which allows unions to function, as this is a check on corporate excess.

3. More free and fair trade. Get tariffs and BS out of the way, and do everything we can to expand our global footprint. Which means we're still going to get stuff made in China. But if we keep penetrating markets, then we will lift up the rest of the world, and we will stay at the top.

Toad734 said...

Stop asking the same questions and you will stop getting the same answers.

I didn't say anything about Unions. But closing plants here, to build them in China is about as much against American jobs as you can get.

A. Most major corporations in the US have gone several years paying 0 net taxes. Under the fair tax, all their raw materials, insurance, etc. would be taxed at 3x the amount they are taxed now.

B. We will give up minimum wage when CEOs put a cap on their wages. Low wage pay in this country has only decreased over time and it is now at one of its lowest levels in history, CEO pay is at an all time high and the rich are richer than they have ever been, the poor are poorer then they have ever been and the middle class is shrinking.

People in this country are paid accoding to their worth or simply fired and not paid at all. If someone was making a dollar per hour and you felt their work sucked but was at least worth a dollar, they have nothing telling them what they are doing isn't cutting it. However, if someone isn't worth $$7 per hour, you fire them, they realize why and don't make the same mistakes in their next job. If they improve and are valuable, chances are they will get a raise if the company wants to keep them.

3. Free trade and deregulation is why we are in the mess we are in now. Free trade allows China to manipulate their currency to mirror ours, which is a false value. This is why they will continue to suck away our jobs, why our financial markets are so screwed up, why the dollar is worthless, why energy got so expensive, why the american worker can never get an edge vs. China, etc. Free trade has made rich people richer and poor people poorer. Again, if you don't like the middle class, you should support free trade.

Patrick M said...

Yeah, I ask the same questions. Sure. Whatever you say. But to your Inaccupoints (trademark pending if I weren't such a lazy bastard).

A. Wrong and Wrong. Corportaions pay not taxes, they only incorporate those expenses into the price. But let's list those. Corporate income taxes, matching costs for employee wages, compliance costs for every regulation ever conceives, and associated costs to avoid every cost and tax they can legally avoid. And the FairTax REMOVES ALL THOSE EMBEDDED TAXES, REPLACING IT WITH A UNIFORM TAX ON THE FINAL CONSUMER PRODUCT.

B. Do I even need to answer this. You support capping and controlling wages at both ends. I don't. I go back to the simple example of the ice cream place up the road that didn't open this past year, partially because of the Dairy Queen on the other end of town, but also because the cost of putting kids in there to serve ice cream was too high (due to a minimum wage increase in the former great state of Ohio).

3. (because C wasn't good enough) Our financial markets are screwed up and the dollar is worthless because of BAD DEBT, both in the private sector, as well as the $10+ trillion Washington has acquired, partially by enabling the bad debt in the private sector. Free trade, combined with removing the roadblocks to investment in America, is the only route out of this. Protectionism and taxing the rich was the kind of shit Hoover pulled after the stock market crash in 1929. Let me know how that worked out when you get done reading.

Toad734 said...

But who are we in debt to?

I just asked, why, if these companies didn't pay taxes in these years, why didn't their prices go down? They didn't so your argument is not valid. Sure, if they never had any tax at all, could they sell their products for cheaper, yes, they could, but they probably wouldn't. And if by your claim, the government would still collect the same amount in taxes, either I would pay those taxes or the corporations would. If I have less money in the bank because I pay a higer tax rate now, I don't get any savings by corporate taxes being lower, my net is the same. Personally, I would prefer their taxes to stay high and I could decide not to buy their shit.

There are a thousand reasons that ice cream store could have closed. How do you know that the owner just decided he didn't want to do it unless he could personally make $100k per year? How do you know it wasn't due to food prices, building expenses, consumer shifts, etc. Bottom line is that a dairy queen is doing business paying the same minimum wage he would have had to pay. If they can stay in business on minimum wage he must have been doing something else wrong. When that dairy queen and every minimum wage job in your town goes bankrupt then you can come see me. Sure, if minimum wage was $1 an hour and we could hire 8 year olds to work 12 hour days there would be a lot of businesses which could become more competitive. So where are you going to send your kids to work for $1 per hour?

Patrick M said...

Toad: But who are we in debt to?

It would probably be easier to list who we aren't in debt to, as we are a major debt culture.

As for the corporate taxes and the FairTax and such, perhaps you missed the list of associated costs that go away with the old tax structure. I'll leave that for a future post, though.

Here's what I know about the ice cream place. it's on the lot with the bowling alley, so I assume they own it. It's one of those summer-only places, and doesn't sell the breadth of stuff the DQ does (it's the DQ restaurant concept). I'm making the assumption that costs were marginal, and it didn't look worth it this year. At least that's what I gather from the admittedly incomplete info I have, but I'm usually right about these things.