tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post1860273809621151990..comments2023-07-07T04:02:25.375-04:00Comments on Sane Political Discourse: The Legacy of George W BushPatrick Mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-33357141990808763342008-12-11T00:13:00.000-05:002008-12-11T00:13:00.000-05:00ADMINISTRATOR'S NOTE:Due to the nature of the blog...ADMINISTRATOR'S NOTE:<BR/><BR/>Due to the nature of the blog and the refusal of some to abide by the rules, I have terminated comments.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-65947721713021299682008-12-11T00:12:00.000-05:002008-12-11T00:12:00.000-05:00Shaw: I don't make excuses for Bush. I call it l...Shaw: I don't make excuses for Bush. I call it like I see it.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, I'll just say that it will take several years for the legacy of George W Bush to become clear. If the economy stays tanked, it will not be the most flattering. If Obama gets things on track in 2009, Bush will stand primarily as a war president. And except for Vietnam, that always boost presidential cred, because we usually come out (perceived) in better shape than when we went in.<BR/><BR/>Saty: If I just said you weren't an idiot, it wouldn't be as funny.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-65446034890423836232008-12-10T23:22:00.000-05:002008-12-10T23:22:00.000-05:00Satyavati devi dasi said...If you think GWB is an ...<I>Satyavati devi dasi said...If you think GWB is an idiot, good for you.<BR/><BR/>Good for you?<BR/><BR/>Oh really?<BR/>Only an IDIOT would say that!</I><BR/><BR/>I totally don't get this reply. It doesn't make sense to me.<BR/><BR/>Why not good for you? You don't like brussels sprouts? Good for you. Don't eat them. Don't support abortion? Good for you. Don't have one. Don't believe in buying foreign-made products? Good for you, and good luck finding things still made in the USA (see above 'bang for the buck' et al).<BR/><BR/>What's wrong with good for you? If you don't like Bush, good for you. You're exercising your right as an American. Nobody can make you like him, nobody can force you to buy into it, nobody can insist that you get up and cheer for a president you don't believe in. And why's that? Cause this is America.<BR/><BR/>I fail to see where this kind of thought process would make anyone an idiot. In fact, this kind of thought process is what makes America the land of the free, despite the attempts of many to make it the land of fascism wrapped in red, white, and blue.<BR/><BR/>And you have yourself a nice night.<BR/><BR/>PS. Thanks, Patrick, although you know I'm not wrong about near as much stuff as you make it sound :*Satyavati devi dasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13980257934310271457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-25228176207698789342008-12-10T16:23:00.000-05:002008-12-10T16:23:00.000-05:00Patrick,When Dubya put on that flight suit and lan...Patrick,<BR/><BR/>When Dubya put on that flight suit and landed on the carrier, it was a shameful, embarrassing STUNT!<BR/><BR/>Again, try to imagine Eisenhower doing something as crass.<BR/><BR/>Obama may be back-peddling on his campaign rhetoric, but it's no STUNT. It's what every politician does--including GWB who said he'd be a uniter, not a divider, who said he didn't believe in nation building, and who PROMISED to continue the ban on automatic weapons, but in fact let the ban expire. He also promised WHILE HE WAS PRSIDENT to fire anyone who lied to him about involvement in the Plame scandal. Karl Rove lied when he had Scott McClelan say to the press that he, Rove, was not involved in the Plame scandal. The Fitzgerald investigation proved otherwise.<BR/><BR/>A political stunt and a political promise are not the same.<BR/><BR/>And we don't know yet what Obama will do vis-a-vis Iraq. He's not the president yet. Let's wait and see.<BR/><BR/>In any event, I admire your steadfastness in defending GWB. It's hard work, I tell ya, hard work!<BR/><BR/>And Throwing Stones, your Kennedy remark is stale. Can't you come up with something original?<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you can find something in your tiny bag of witty insults that hasn't been heard before.<BR/><BR/>Go for it, big guy! Who wouldn't admire someone who would make fun of an old man dying of brain cancer?Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-57619049973850757802008-12-10T16:20:00.000-05:002008-12-10T16:20:00.000-05:00Patrick, said..."Enough with the namecalling. Saty...Patrick, said..."Enough with the namecalling. Satyavati may be wrong on almost everything, blinded by her socialist ideology, ignoring (my sweet and caring) common sense, but she most certainly is NOT an idiot"<BR/><BR/>No Comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-11057541781058704842008-12-10T16:04:00.000-05:002008-12-10T16:04:00.000-05:00Shaw Kenawe said... Bubkiss, Yes, like Obama...Shaw Kenawe said...<BR/><BR/> Bubkiss,<BR/><BR/> Yes, like Obama. You left off the rest of my quote. I said it's what a politician DOES in office that determines his/her worth.<BR/><BR/> Being elected merely means that more people believe a politician will accomplish what he/she says he/she will accomplish than they do his/her opponent.<BR/><BR/> I remember a rightwinger once said to me that George W. Bush must be very smart, since he won two elections. I answered her by saying that by that criterion, she would have to believe that Ted Kennedy is a frickin' genius, since he's won every single election he run in since the 60s!!!<BR/>Making him waaaaay smarter than Dubya!<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Ted Kennedy is a frickin'</I> a frickin something! You got that right.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Making him waaaaay smarter than Dubya?</I><BR/><BR/>At least a waaaaay better lair!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-23404731886265471132008-12-10T14:56:00.000-05:002008-12-10T14:56:00.000-05:00Shaw: The Truman Doctrine, and its subsequent con...Shaw: The Truman Doctrine, and its subsequent consequences, led to the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, armed what would become the Taliban, turned the Middle East into the center of oil production, and laid the groundwork for the current war. Yet despite this, it's considered an "accomplishment" of the Truman administration (I believe it was right). It will take several years to know whether our efforts in Iraq and the war in general will really pay off. And only then will Bush's legacy be set. Phanoman (and I to a lesser extent) predict a boost and you predict failure, based on ideology. But it won't really be settled.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, let me see if I can borrow a phrase of yours to make a point:<BR/><BR/>[Obama] <I>didn't have the intelligence or the class to say no to such grandstanding posturing </I> when he said he'd end the war, a position he's backing off of now as he learns all the facts.<BR/><BR/>(the italicized is your original statement about Bush)<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to defend the "Mission Accomplished" banner, because it was not a great PR move by Bush (despite being taken out of context), but that he lacked intelligence or class is a little of a stretch, just as I'm stretching to indicate Obama embraced the antiwar dorks just to get an election and didn't really mean it. <BR/><BR/>Bob: <I>Only an <B>IDIOT</B> [Satyavati] would say that!</I><BR/><BR/>Enough with the namecalling. Satyavati may be wrong on almost everything, blinded by her socialist ideology, ignoring (my sweet and caring) common sense, but she most certainly is NOT an idiot.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-79287437268040520062008-12-10T14:37:00.000-05:002008-12-10T14:37:00.000-05:00Bubkiss,Yes, like Obama. You left off the rest of...Bubkiss,<BR/><BR/>Yes, like Obama. You left off the rest of my quote. I said it's what a politician DOES in office that determines his/her worth.<BR/><BR/>Being elected merely means that more people believe a politician will accomplish what he/she says he/she will accomplish than they do his/her opponent. <BR/><BR/>I remember a rightwinger once said to me that George W. Bush must be very smart, since he won two elections. I answered her by saying that by that criterion, she would have to believe that Ted Kennedy is a frickin' genius, since he's won every single election he run in since the 60s!!!<BR/><BR/>Making him waaaaay smarter than Dubya!Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-91656357482729202722008-12-10T13:47:00.000-05:002008-12-10T13:47:00.000-05:00Phantoman is strongly supportive of GWB and his pr...Phantoman is strongly supportive of GWB and his presidency. Good for him. But please don't denigrate those of us who do not see his 8 years in the presidency through the same rosey glasses as you do.<BR/><BR/>Phantoman hopes that years after he leaves office, GWB's reputation will improve as did Harry Truman's. Have you read what Truman did as a politician? Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? The Truman Senate Committee hearings on war profiteering? The Truman Doctrine?<BR/>Those were all immense accomplishments that had a lasting effect on this nation.<BR/><BR/>The Bush Doctrine established the right to pre-emptive war against PRESUMED enemy nations--not nations that presented a clear and present danger to the safety of the United States. A complete reversal of everything this country has stood for over the last 232 years.<BR/><BR/>But Bush also allowed torture, the politicization of the DoJ, and worse, the continued incompetence of Donald Rumsfeld--which led to thousands of unnecessary deaths of US military and Iraqi civilians.<BR/><BR/>There are a lot of reasons GWB is disliked, and yes even hated, in this country and around the world.<BR/><BR/>For you to dismiss this as mere partisanship is refusing to face reality.<BR/><BR/>Saty is correct in that we are loyal to this country and the Constitution. If we have the misfortune to have a president who disregards the law of the land, we have no obligation to be loyal to him or her.<BR/><BR/>PS. An insight on Bush's character was embarrassingly displayed when he consented to what in all probability was Karl Rove's idea of a political stunt. Can you imagine Dwight Eisenhower OR Harry Truman, both of whom served their country proudly in war, agreeing to fly onto a carrier dressed in military garb and then proclaiming "Mission Accomplished?"<BR/><BR/>Bush didn't have the intelligence or the class to say no to such grandstanding posturing. That he didn't know that he shouldn't have debased the office of the presidency with such theatrics is a stunning and revealing insight into this man's character.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-51858442418157345632008-12-10T13:02:00.000-05:002008-12-10T13:02:00.000-05:00Shaw Kenawe said... If he was that bad, how com...Shaw Kenawe said...<BR/><BR/> If he was that bad, how come he was elected twice? He must have done something good.<BR/><BR/> I can't remember who posted this, but if this person believes being elected means having "done something good," then I would refer him/her to the current, and soon to be former, Governor of Illinois.<BR/><BR/> <B>Being elected means that, well, you got the most votes.</B><BR/><BR/><B>Ya mean like Obama did?</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-40366202805440381272008-12-10T03:08:00.000-05:002008-12-10T03:08:00.000-05:00Let us not forget that one of the things that defi...Let us not forget that one of the things that defines America is the right to stand up and say that the president's an asshole, if you so believe it.<BR/><BR/>We aren't obligated to some kind of blind fanaticism that decrees we stand up and cheer for someone we don't believe in or who we believe isn't doing the right thing.<BR/><BR/>The tenets of our capitalist society can also be applied here: we're going for the biggest bang for our buck. If the president isn't delivering, if we feel we're not getting what we're paying for, or if we feel like we can do better with someone else in the job, then we say so. Companies don't get accused of 'disloyalty' when they ship 40% of their jobs overseas: they're just trying to make more money, right? Are they disloyal to the people? Depends on who you're asking, but capitalist dogma would say no (and blame it on the people-after all, if they were willing to work for the sub-subsistence wages people overseas will work for, there'd be no reason for any company to outsource-so it's your own fault you lost your job!). <BR/><BR/>The point is, there is no onus on any citizen to support policies or presidents. You're free to say what you like and believe as you do. If you think GWB is an idiot, good for you. Nobody can make you believe otherwise nor behave as if you do.<BR/><BR/>"Patriotism" is love of country, not love of presidents. To blindly follow is not patriotism; to support what you don't believe is falsehood and/or hypocrisy. To accuse or disparage those who feel strongly enough to speak their minds on such topics is just another step towards fascism.Satyavati devi dasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13980257934310271457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-4959179868916956732008-12-09T20:19:00.000-05:002008-12-09T20:19:00.000-05:00Whoa. Just saw this comment moderation statement....Whoa. Just saw this comment moderation statement.<BR/><BR/>Why? What's going on?Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-77486364527299083782008-12-09T20:07:00.000-05:002008-12-09T20:07:00.000-05:00If he was that bad, how come he was elected twice?...<I>If he was that bad, how come he was elected twice? He must have done something good.</I><BR/><BR/>I can't remember who posted this, but if this person believes being elected means having "done something good," then I would refer him/her to the current, and soon to be former, Governor of Illinois.<BR/><BR/>Being elected means that, well, you got the most votes. <BR/><BR/>It's what one DOES in office that determines the politician's worth.Shaw Kenawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08637273000409613497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-4865337689676485022008-12-09T19:00:00.000-05:002008-12-09T19:00:00.000-05:00Earlier this year, 12,000 people in San Francisco ...Earlier this year, 12,000 people in San Francisco signed a petition in support of a proposition on a local ballot to rename an Oceanside sewage plant after George W. Bush. The proposition is only one example of the classless disrespect many Americans have shown the president.<BR/><BR/> According to recent Gallup polls, the president's average approval rating is below 30% -- down from his 90% approval in the wake of 9/11. Mr. Bush has endured relentless attacks from the left while facing abandonment from the right.<BR/>This is the price Mr. Bush is paying for trying to work with both Democrats and Republicans. During his 2004 victory speech, the president reached out to voters who supported his opponent, John Kerry, and said, "Today, I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it. I will do all I can do to deserve your trust."<BR/><BR/>Those bipartisan efforts have been met with crushing resistance from both political parties.<BR/><BR/>The president's original Supreme Court choice of Harriet Miers alarmed Republicans, while his final nomination of Samuel Alito angered Democrats. His solutions to reform the immigration system alienated traditional conservatives, while his refusal to retreat in Iraq has enraged liberals who have unrealistic expectations about the challenges we face there.<BR/><BR/>It seems that no matter what Mr. Bush does, he is blamed for everything. He remains despised by the left while continuously disappointing the right.<BR/><BR/>Yet it should seem obvious that many of our country's current problems either existed long before Mr. Bush ever came to office, or are beyond his control. Perhaps if Americans stopped being so divisive, and congressional leaders came together to work with the president on some of these problems, he would actually have had a fighting chance of solving them.<BR/><BR/>Like the president said in his 2004 victory speech, "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America."<BR/><BR/>To be sure, Mr. Bush is not completely alone. His low approval ratings put him in the good company of former Democratic President Harry S. Truman, whose own approval rating sank to 22% shortly before he left office. Despite Mr. Truman's low numbers, a 2005 Wall Street Journal poll found that he was ranked the seventh most popular president in history.<BR/><BR/>Just as Americans have gained perspective on how challenging Truman's presidency was in the wake of World War II, our country will recognize the hardship President Bush faced these past eight years -- and how extraordinary it was that he accomplished what he did in the wake of the September 11 attacks.<BR/><BR/>The treatment President Bush has received from this country is nothing less than a disgrace. The attacks launched against him have been cruel and slanderous, proving to the world what little character and resolve we have. The president is not to blame for all these problems. He never lost faith in America or her people, and has tried his hardest to continue leading our nation during a very difficult time.<BR/><BR/>Our failure to stand by the one person who continued to stand by us has not gone unnoticed by our enemies. It has shown to the world how disloyal we can be when our president needed loyalty -- a shameful display of arrogance and weakness that will haunt this nation long after Mr. Bush has left the White House. I think that history will rate President Bush very high. But not for many years to come.<BR/>Higher than most of the democrats presidents we have had in the past...that's for sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-6058969006457316282008-12-09T17:39:00.000-05:002008-12-09T17:39:00.000-05:00No, Toad, you ran down the usual moonbat line. Th...No, Toad, you ran down the usual moonbat line. Three fucking times.<BR/><BR/>If you feel the need to keep breaking the rules then no one needs to read someone with no disregard for the rules. <BR/><BR/><B>NOTE TO ALL:</B><BR/><BR/>Because Toad can't play by the rules, comment moderation will be on until I close comments on this post. If you want to complain about moderation, visit his site and give him shit.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-76430816285850258292008-12-09T17:33:00.001-05:002008-12-09T17:33:00.001-05:00Is the moderation on??Is the moderation on??Satyavati devi dasihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13980257934310271457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-55881802211654250162008-12-09T17:19:00.000-05:002008-12-09T17:19:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Toad734https://www.blogger.com/profile/01450263690181812924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-9439701653792123362008-12-09T17:18:00.000-05:002008-12-09T17:18:00.000-05:00Hey Mike, I mean Pat, I realize you don't always l...Hey Mike, I mean Pat, I realize you don't always like to hear the truth but I just addressed all your issues here. If you don't want to talk about the Bush legacy and what he did and how he is perceived, then do a post about guns or something.Toad734https://www.blogger.com/profile/01450263690181812924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-32683854663499453352008-12-09T16:56:00.000-05:002008-12-09T16:56:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Toad734https://www.blogger.com/profile/01450263690181812924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-32162673941398435122008-12-09T16:52:00.000-05:002008-12-09T16:52:00.000-05:00Patrick reiterated: 'To quote: As such, I will not...Patrick reiterated:<BR/><BR/> 'To quote: As such, I will not be tolerant of rank moonbattery in the comments section...'<BR/><BR/>Any discussion of 'The Legacy of George W. Bush' which excludes Presidential directives based on extremely dubious interpretations of the Constitution (in secret bye the bye) is no discussion at all. There is a reason these decisions and the discussion surrounding them remain secret Patrick.<BR/><BR/>Bush et. al. are VERY concerned about their legacy as well.<BR/><BR/>While including the topic I did may be uncomfortable for you it is by no means, as you suggest, baseless.<BR/><BR/>Cheers!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-43477933781855603762008-12-09T16:34:00.000-05:002008-12-09T16:34:00.000-05:00Dave: Apologies for not finishing my comment. Le...Dave: Apologies for not finishing my comment. Let's try it again.<BR/><BR/>There are dangers in allowing the executive to broad a power. Perhaps we've reached a period where we need to start limiting him again. Otherwise, we might as well crown us a king at the rate we're going. But on something as fluid and tricky as a war, I'll give the POTUS the benefit of the doubt until clear evidence to the contrary comes up (for example, my questions on the sanity of going into Iraq). <BR/><BR/>I do think the executive branch has been gathering more power to itself, to the point we are in danger of a quasi-dictatorship. This is where electing men of principle would help.<BR/><BR/>Thankfully, we do require our president to be reelected for a second term and limit him from a third. And while only used twice (and imminent the third time), there's the power of impeachment.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-30527488928112939112008-12-09T16:27:00.000-05:002008-12-09T16:27:00.000-05:00Arthur: No. I stated specifically that I would n...Arthur: No. I stated specifically that I would not let this turn into a baseless Bush bash (To quote: <I>As such, I will not be tolerant of rank moonbattery in the comments section.</I>). If you had presented a relevant point rather than echo Shaw's point, I'd have left you stand. <BR/><BR/>And if you notice, my post was not flattering to Bush, but it did have a POV (again, I stated that). So go back and read that paragraph again.<BR/><BR/>But since you whined, here's the books you listed:<BR/><BR/><I>Jane Mayer, 'The Dark Side'<BR/>Barton Gellman; 'Angler: The Cheney Vice Presidency'</I><BR/><BR/>Collins: Fair points. One of the biggest flaws of the administration was their inability to defend themselves when the left came a calling. And while they inherited many things, the moves of the last 6 months have been increasingly bad.<BR/><BR/>Obviously, the economic issues had not caught up in 2004, the war had not reach shaky ground in Iraq, and the Dems threw out a dork of a candidate. Plus, I hadn't forgotten the first refund check (the good one).Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-22470272837695411762008-12-09T15:48:00.000-05:002008-12-09T15:48:00.000-05:00Since the day he took office the Bush administrati...Since the day he took office the Bush administration inherited an economic recession from the Clinton administration. And he was blamed for everything since. It seems that no matter what Mr. Bush does, he is blamed for everything. He remains despised by the left while continuously disappointing the right.<BR/><BR/>Yet it should seem obvious that many of our country’s current problems either existed long before Mr. Bush ever came to office, or are beyond his control. Perhaps if Americans stopped being so divisive, and congressional leaders came together to work with the president on some of these problems, he would actually have had a fighting chance of solving them. This good man has gotten a a bad rap and flacks for the last 8 years.<BR/>If he was that bad, how come he was elected twice? He must have done something good.collins callinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00608910895496611892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-31141088561620483842008-12-09T15:40:00.000-05:002008-12-09T15:40:00.000-05:00Deleting posts I see. Mike has done the same thing...Deleting posts I see. Mike has done the same things when certain facts are painful to consider.<BR/><BR/>Interesting Patrick.<BR/><BR/>Afraid folks might find some useful information?<BR/><BR/>Pointing out flaws in the Bush administration and suggesting books which paint a less than flattering portrait of the Bush years is dismissed as 'general hater rehash'.<BR/><BR/>You wish.<BR/><BR/>Both books are sourced on extensive interviews with Powell, Armitage, Rice, Ashcroft, Feith, Yoo and others who in no measure could be labelled 'haters'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1250195226200160668.post-47618285861921385372008-12-09T15:12:00.000-05:002008-12-09T15:12:00.000-05:00Dave: There is a dangerShaw: You're right that I...Dave: There is a danger<BR/><BR/>Shaw: You're right that I'm not going to freely accept it, because the debate is still ongoing. <BR/><BR/>But I did consider further, and I suspect that, unless something clear is brought during the Obama administration, the torture question will not significantly affect Bush's legacy. Except with the haters, of course.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of which:<BR/><BR/>Arthur, for just rehashing Shaw, and Toad, for the general hater rehash (of which I warned), I call moonbat. Bye.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16377933168305160179noreply@blogger.com